I think that would certainly be a more defensible claim, but I’m not sure Scott was making it in OP as precisely/carefully as are you. Men? I was never into either the new atheism nor the social justice movement, and that’s probably because I follow a different hamartiology. Some travel writer going on about how the boring small town he ended up in is probably full of fundies who hate gays and think the Earth is six thousand years old. Dave Rubin, Civil Religion, New Atheism: the Godlessness that Failed . Just that history helps us avoid getting too dazzled by current trends, or too swept away by any particular narrative. That was it. I was supposed to be open-minded. Steven Pinker may disagree with social justice theology (for a lack of a better word), but on most issues his object level goals are closer to social justice than its opposite. (This was originally written as a direct response to the anti-Watson side of elevatorgate.). While I do think that racism and sexism are meaningful issues, it probably comes across in my post that I don’t think they’re the end-all be-all. It’s gag-inducing and it’s elitist and it’s ugly. Finns just generally punch (or at least used to punch) above their weight in early Internet debates. History would be seen as the struggle of Progress to emerge from the swampy waters of Superstition, and like everything else, it would work as long as you were willing to massage things a little. What is interesting to me here, is the exchange of viewpoints and arguments between people with very different backgrounds. Now SJ is the religion that all presidential candidates must show public devotion to. Those of us who finally worked out for ourselves that there has to be a God (because there does) and that atheism is stupid and logically unsupportable, who actually engaged the evidence, usually wind up concluding there’s at least something. Atheism vs. Theism was only a subset of larger, political arguments that got cordoned off into subforums in a couple of places where I hung out regularly (for context: gaming forums) during the timeframes discussed (the Early Internet Era and… whatever it was that started happening around 2012). The rise of the Internet broadened our intellectual horizons. looking at the primaries, I don’t see Buttigieg being pushed for gay rights to the extent Hillary was for women or Obama as blacks. As per your previous post, it’s about the effect on people on the margins, who then have cause to the squeaky wheels to get the grease. I’m not just looking for a rule of thumb or moral heuristic; I’m looking for advice about how to build a concise, coherent, non-mystical political worldview. And I claim that right. In short, they feel put-upon in a way that’s close enough to feeling oppressed, which is a key element needed to run the identity political playbook. As serious problems get dealt with, neglected or less important social justice problems get elevated to keep the outrage juices going. Anyway, thanks for this article, and the 2017 one. Second, I think you are roughly near correct, in that I agree that a lot of the ‘New Atheist’ people became social justice people, but the whole story doesn’t ring true to me. He was, according to her unflattering account, awkward, but there is nothing wrong with flirting with women in elevators, and nothing he did that justified Watson’s semi-public shamming. Therefore religion promotes science. Even though we can find plenty of examples of religion holding back progress, it’s very difficult to make a compelling case that religion is a purely evil force in the world. There are potential geoengineering solutions to global warming and ocean acidification that could buy enough time for solar and wind power to replace fossil fuels through sheer economic efficiency, There aren’t. It’s pretty rare for a movement to just come out of nowhere. This is what they care about since on their worldview the world is pointless and hence ontology does not matter. But they’re not universal to all religions. It hurts when people point this out, because it damages their sense of identity, which is built up around moralism. He invites people like Charles Murray, Jonathan Haidt, the Weinstein brothers, Douglas Murray, Nicholas Christakis, Jrdan B. P***rson and Geoff Miller on his podcast. In fact, I see most politics this way. Until we develop one, arguing about which of the two poles is worse is like bandaging a paper cut on one finger while the patient is bleeding out from a traumatic amputation of the other arm. “We are winning. This might be wrong, but it at least leaves room for the possibility. Richard Dawkins, of course, and the Four Horsemen, but also random bloggers like PZ Myers and Stephanie Zvan. There were other mass movements, and maybe you could view history as a struggle vs. intoxicants, but you can’t say that a concern with racism and sexism came out of nowhere. I think Elevatorgate was a flashpoint for tensions that had been accumulating for a long time. And anyway, it’s like war for wusses. Resonated in a voice that we’d ignored under the illusion of solidarity. Being more or less confrontational is somewhat orthogonal to social skills. That sort of pose I can certainly understand, and everyone seems to consistently describe Chapo this way. > my hypothesis would be that the New Atheist movement was more populated with those of religious background, while the Social Justice movement is more populated with those of secular background. You edited out the parts which stick out like sore thumbs to outsiders. isn’t there a famous quote about somebody not knowing anybody who voted for Nixon? References to Christ are being removed from parliamentary proceedings with little more than a few fundy protestors that receive little broad-base support from a still majority Christian nation. Like, yes, the arguments for and against the existence of God are old and tired. This sparked a series of increasingly incendiary and personally hostile comments on the Atheist blogosphere between people who argued that the man did essentially nothing wrong, and people who argued that the behavior was inappropriate and called those who disagreed sexists. Their hamartiology included not just religion, but also racism and of course capitalism. And women are always going to throw away every chance to have some power and independence, because that’s what their hormones tell them to do. Maybe “the next hamartiology” (someday) after conflict-based altruism will be toward constructive altruism (the sin will be to turn on people aggressively). Question that occurred to me while thinking about this: How many New Atheists were people who came from a secular background and were now encountering conservative religious people (like the people the quote is talking about) vs. people who came from a conservative religious background and deconverted? Each side has a simple explanation for why the other must be stopped. (Again, my understanding is the fundies.) Oppressed in-groups, strange bedfellows, and all. Note that SJ advocates seem to typically call this kind of bias an ‘-ism,’ regardless of malicious intent. Another part was general deemphasizing of the founder. It will be like the Seekers or the Johnists: beliefs that were important at the time but are lost in the general melange of socially transformative zeal. • social media (as in, one side is pro-social media and the other anti-, all the problems with things like social media addiction and algorithm bias and such will be blamed for a bunch of stuff by one side) Interesting observation. But at the same time, my common sense shouts very loudly that atheism clearly flows from materialism in a way social justice does not. Uh, no. You walked right into this. 10000y explosion was published in 2009, westhunther and h bdchick blogs emerged in 2010-2011, this is coherent with the transition of “evolution is as nice science that allow you to make fun of creationist rednecks” to “evolution+genetics is a nasty pseudoscience promoted by racists” occuring around 2010. it’s very difficult to make a compelling case that religion is a purely evil force in the world. And that stuff wasn’t coming out of Enn Arr Ex or all-trite folks—they didn’t exist yet! There are about a million ways to be a man. Not all Christians are Protestant. They would have a lot of little forums about various aspects of the games, plus two off-topic forums. I asked how you self-justify, and the answer is entirely “the guys are bad.”. And so on. Indeed, it gets its strength from exaggerating cultural differences, and then forming coalitions of the identities. But I’d be very interested in constructing counter-arguments like: “The apex of Christianity, and particularly Roman Catholicism’s, influence in the West circa 400-1400 AD was not an era of unique or exceptional peace, justice, scientific discovery, artistic achievement, commerce or martial prowess compared to rival contemporary civilizations or the pagan eras before it and the Protestant and secular eras after it. It’s true that the situation can’t be symmetrical if you refuse to acknowledge or admit that one side of the argument exists at all. We could try to win the chance to be actually human, but it’s true that no one seems to be very interested in that. Eventually, major Atheist celebrities weighted in on one side or the other, leading to the first major split between pro-SJ atheists (with PZ Myers and those others would later organize as Atheism+) and the non-SJ, anti-Islam atheists (with Richard Dawkins). To such a person, the obviousness with which moderns know that conflicts are 100% about race and not about any of the other things they might be about would seem a weird narrative blindness, the same as a New Atheist who relates everything to the Science vs. “Reason” has no part here, except as a stick to hit people with. I take the view that everyone has a religion, and I like my religion to be honest about what it is. It became a profound mystery to me, what is this aspect of our universal humanness that I had so long felt excluded from? The thing is, a lot of the social justice bloggers who emerged out of Internet atheism are still atheists. Bad time and place for that kind of proposition. The term was coined and mostly used by religious people critiquing vocal atheism in spite of nothing about new atheism being actually new. I followed a lot of those blogs, I think the pivotal point was when atheist blogs started focussing on creationist blogs as main opponents, probably following Dawkins. In the mid-1800s, abolitionists. I can’t exactly imagine Christopher Hitchens as a Beto fanboy. would be linking the relative deprivation and “darkness” of the, er, Dark Ages with the constant barbarian* assaults on the periphery of Europe (Huns, Saracens, Berbers, Vikings, Magyars over a couple of centuries) coupled with the ongoing conversion of Europeans (in 476 Christianity was mostly confined to the Roman Empire, and not all that well-established in the West). But it’s more entrenched now with no sign of stopping. Just stop. The belief that human subpopulations vary grossly in phenotypic traits, including mental/behavioral traits and specifically intelligence. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/, https://skepchick.org/2019/09/richard-dawkins-loves-evangelicals-if-they-hate-social-justice/, without including a term for racism at all, mocking portrayal of a polyamorous progressive, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism#%22Four_Horsemen%22, the largest loss of black wealth in history, some weird racialized postmodernism that sincerely uses the word “herstory”, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1948550617707015, 3.1% atheist, 4.0% agnostic, and 15.8% who identify as “nothing in particular.”, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-religious-countries-in-the-world/. It was only around my junior year of high school, 2011-2012 or so, that that began to develop, or at least that I began to find it. I don’t actually believe anybody believes that. when you switch things around so that the same logic is applied to men as women (or white people as black people, or apparently men as black people, or whatever), things don’t work out. Finland is pretty mid-range in “Do you belief in God?” -question, insofar as Europe goes. – the people involved in 2000s-era internet atheism were a different generation than the 2010s-era social justice movement. Maybe Gen Z is the Identitarian Generation or even the Minority-Majoritarian Generation (referring not just to race but a move by subgroups for various identity topics (race, gender, religion, etc.) On an object level, the only things that happened are the following: I started looking at Atheist related content around 2012 at the end of elementary school. Women having to changing their behavior to be safe may be necessary right now, but is unfortunate and should be made obsolete ASAP. I think this is true—deontological libertarianism might be a “religion,” but SJW stuff definitely seems like not only a religion, but specifically like a Christian heresy. But the organisation’s explicit goal is to reduce the influence of religion on public life; that does not truly require the input of particular religious or ethnic groups and most members, ex-Muslims included, would prefer it did not. In addition, conservatives would try to force creationism into schools, which gave the progressives an easy target, demonstrating that conservatives were scientifically illiterate, therefore dumb, therefore not worth listening to. Amusingly, he’s since gone full-blown atheist-SJW. To be clear, though, BR were HUGE in New Atheist circles. By analogy, social justice might compare societies to a standard of justice. Every day, Donald Trump sticks his smirking face on national television and provides vivid confirmation that yes, men are precisely as terrible as feminists claim they are, and that if there is any decency or justice in the world something ought to be done about that. All the way along it seems like some oscillating between universalism and particular vision, but overall more progress than regress throughout. @Atlas I feel like there’s some broader thing here about how everyone knows what it is “we’re” all arguing about. (This was during the 2000’s decade.). Is there any way that someone could publicly say “guys, don’t do that” which would be acceptable? Of course Christianity itself is a hamartiology, but it likely didn’t hold sway among whoever the predecessors of New Atheists were. So, I believe many new atheists became alt-right trolls or fans of “intellectual” dark web youtubers as Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, and Jordan Peterson, mainly out of spite of the Blue Tribe unholy alliance to islam. (which is what attacking SJ sounds like) Atheism seems less important than safety. Speaking as a smart Christian, I don’t agree with Quixote’s take. New Atheism was also more centralized. But I’m pretty sure that’s not how group identities work. On a certain level I wonder if this isn’t a return to a world historical norm and/or forager value (religions as a set of practices and bearers of culture but not demanding strong belief in a particular metaphysical view). I can’t think of another explanation for both sides so ardently believing such profound nonsense. He’s an Atheist, he appeals to right wing Cultural Christians. From my experience, nobody anymore wants to the “that guy”: the cranky dinner table guest that so embarrassingly belittles people in public about their belief in God. The decline in New Atheism also roughly coincides with Christopher Hitchens’ death. I am for real here, courtesy of tvtropes, which never lies to me: The recurring segment “Chapo Reading Series” has one host (usually Will) reading aloud a particularly odious piece of writing by some kind of political pundit (most often Ross Douthat or Rod Dreher) while everyone relentlessly riffs on it. (And similar things had happened previously in e.g. Commentariat vs. readership issue, probably. I don’t know where a lot of these people are now. Hmm, I wonder who’s a better representation of the future of conservatism 10-15 years hence, Jacob Wohl, or Nick Fuentes? Blank-slatism and social-constructionism entail plenty of science denial of their own and ultimately created a cleavage between the science-affirming atheists and the culture-war-partisan atheists–with the science-affirming atheists again attracting a periphery of culture-war partisans from the other side. I’m hoping Scott will let this one past, because I’m not talking about how much of a jerk someone is or is not, but their underlying beliefs. At least to the billionaire owned and operated press core. I wouldn’t call AOC a SJ personality. As a couple of other people have said, I feel like New Atheism is a movement which largely succeeded, and the people remaining identified as “New Atheism” ended up as the movement leaders who couldn’t let go. If true, it is not a significant majority. So much so that in a practical sense, the Bible that the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible pillories is not the same as that of a mature Christian using it for the purposes of “loving God and people”, which are supposedly its guiding principles — even if they are the same translation. Zoroastrianism today, which is not only a fire worshiping religion, but also not open to converts. They care about the process of pushing disruptive policies. This research from Pew shows that Americans who change religion or affiliation once, frequently do it multiple times. The closest I ever got to it was sometimes reading hilarious take-downs of Christopher Hitchens’ and Sam Harris’ views on foreign policy, but this was usually from people on the left who were probably themselves atheists. Why would they imagine others seek to restrict free expression? Outside of minority cultural expressions and really rather quaint evangelical sideshows I honestly can’t remember the last time I heard religion being mentioned or discussed in any public context. In any case, I think that the whole timeline is wrong with thinking that the popularity of functionalism has anything to do with what the average educated Democrat decided was commonsense during the New Atheism period. If you’re going to use “supremacy” as a proxy for “white supremacy” because that’s all Google will let you get away with, I think you kind of have to allow “agnosticism” as a proxy for “not sure whether God exists”. “I can tolerate anything except the outgroup” really doesn’t do the job. I’d be curious to see Dawkins debate, say, Feser, who comes to mind as the most prominent theologian still wading into the Does God Even Exist? So there’s your answer for how the right self-justifies as well. It was beautiful, it was simple, it was perfect. But in framing it this way, I noticed something interesting: choosing to immediately move on from a victory to other causes and looking down upon those who continue to fight is sort of the opposite of the long-term mentality in a lot of activism: the long-term activist strategy more often seems to be never to acknowledge that a battle has been won (at least not for more than a few seconds) because the war is never over. Also, you are just applying gendered stereotypes, which also makes it very hypocritical. In particular, Scott often seems to be switching between “Blue Tribe” as code for Democratic or urban American and as code for “the Oberlin College gender studies department”. Everything was pretty good. I thought that Venn diagram of prominent supporters of the two is a circle (well, for people who were prominent in both time periods). “Gov. Thanks! A Creationist pastor I debated a lot with, now a good friend, asked me what it would take, excluding divine intervention, for me to change my mind. Both black protestants and white evangelicals are their parties most loyal voters and the more frequently they attend church they more loyal they are (on average), but black Democrats aren’t the most Left (on average) voters, the most Left (on average) are Democrats who earn between $80,000 and $200,000 a year (so the urban professional class, A.K.A. Hatred is good. Nobody wants to accept either of those labels (though there’a a little motion toward reframing “entitlement” as being oppressed by baby boomers). If creationists weren’t banned in online flamewars, it was because of an optimistic appraisal of the chances of (de)converting them from their religion. It’s not even a skeptical position, as one is rejecting even the possibility of evidence. And I think it’s not hard to find out that this target is really Uncle Sam. Article: âNEW ATHEISM: THE GODLESSNESS THAT FAILED,â by Scott Alexander . But almost nobody does more that negligible good at the global scale, and attempts to are very likely to do more harm than good, because global-scale good is hard to do and the ways you can try are prone to dramatic failure modes. Isn’t the “average person” in 2019 typing on a touchscreen? By 2025 it might look very different to our eyes and still be broadly thought of as the same thing. Sure, a lot of people who identify as atheists now are pretty critical of social justice. I’m going to concur with Ninety-Three. That’s because the only people remaining in the atheist movement are the people who didn’t participate in the mass transformation into social justice. I say this as someone in that category, those are not traits that prevent radicalization. The few I saw of Chesterton didn’t impress me(Chesterton’s fence is a variation of the precaution principle, and I consider it a sophism only employed when you don’t have any good argument: if the benefice/cost is in favor of action, you don’t need to consider the past). If you go to any thread on r/politics about Trump (aka any thread on r/politics), you’ll see people saying things like this: [Trump voters] know they are being lied to, well most of them do, but look at the increase of hatred in America. And they still do seem foreign to me now, but now I know I sort of tried something similar (albeit near-infinitely milder) in the early internet. Now I can go on Twitter and see everybody’s naked, flailing Id. I am surprised how much people succeed at that – instead of being pointed at and laughed as somebody committing basic schoolyard logical fallacy, and recommended come next week and try better, this kind of behavior is embraced as brave and bold, and lauded. 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